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Is Psi "magick" for the non-religious?

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Posted on Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:59 pm

sgtpsion

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 425

Supersayainsith wrote:

"Magic" is either Demonic activity or the use of Psi, plain and simple.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me.... only when it's the use of Psi, it's just ritualized Psi. Also, I've found it to be rather hard to tell whether it's demons or Psi. But we'll not get into that on the public thread.

Posted on Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:52 pm

Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

Sgtpsion and supersaiyainsith have brought up the one quarrel I have with not recognizing psionics as a part of magick. By not using archangels, dieties, demons and all that stuff when performing the psion's form of "magick" (called direct magick loooooong before psi was ever around) is that you put in place a barrier of ignorance. This ignorance is the cause of people trying too hard to be scientific. They can't just accept that there are some basic holes in every theory about psionics but regardless attempt to embrace psi as a psionic theory. After all, it can't be denied that psionics exists, but we also have been conditioned to be extremely skeptical of all things unscientific. This is a serious problem because though one does know the cause of psionics (our will or desires, sub/consciously) and the results (moving shit, reading minds, etc.), they don't know the MECHANISM.

By simply assuming that it's their brains or souls or what-have-you that are exclusively connecting the cause and effect, they deliberately become ignorant to the fact that ANYTHING could tie the cause and effect together. Whether it actually is all due to the psion, an astral entity, a diety, demon, etc. is completely unknown because the psion assumes prematurely that they are in complete control. So as long as the psion wills something to happen then it happens, they remain ignorant and so should those supernatural beings exist, the psion is allowing themselves to be used and toyed with. So rather than being ignorant, dig deeper. That's the only way to be sure you're actually controlling your abilities rather than being used as a pawn for fun or energy.

Posted on Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:33 pm

WhiteRaven

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 343

"By not using archangels, dieties, demons and all that stuff when performing the psion's form of "magick" (called direct magick loooooong before psi was ever around)"

yeah, direct magick has been around for centuries, but you're mistaken, it is simply the use of magick without rituals. Direct magic itself is agnostic to those causes.

"you put in place a barrier of ignorance. This ignorance is the cause of people trying too hard to be scientific. They can't just accept that there are some basic holes in every theory about psionics but regardless attempt to embrace psi as a psionic theory. After all, it can't be denied that psionics exists, but we also have been conditioned to be extremely skeptical of all things unscientific. This is a serious problem because though one does know the cause of psionics (our will or desires, sub/consciously) and the results (moving shit, reading minds, etc.), they don't know the MECHANISM."

okay, let's see... yeah, people do try too hard to be scientific, and when they do, they usually fail miserably, look at creationists. but skepticism in general is good...

Posted on Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:38 pm

Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

WhiteRaven wrote:

...but you're mistaken, it is simply the use of magick without rituals. Direct magic itself is agnostic to those causes.

That's what I said lol. So I guess we agree! Wink

WhiteRaven wrote:

okay, let's see... yeah, people do try too hard to be scientific, and when they do, they usually fail miserably, look at creationists. but skepticism in general is good...

Never said skepticism was bad, in fact I never even mentioned it because it's irrelevant to my point. I was explaining WHY people were being overly scientific, and how it was a folly to do so. "Skeptical" and "scientific" are very different terms and are mutually exclusive.

Posted on Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:32 pm

Dbizket

Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 85

Quote:

And a dreadfully boring form at that. ever hear of Black Magic? Summoning? Necromancy? these are forms of magic, too. I don't think I should go into detail too much, lest I incur the wrath of the mods, seeing some would likely consider it psi combat... Suffice to say that you don't "sell your soul to demons" soul-selling is a silly nightmare, energy selling, maybe, but not soul selling.

Uh.... yea. What's your point? It's magic but people don't usually consider it a part ot psi even though it is.. As I was saying.

Posted on Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:56 pm

Dbizket

Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 85

Alright, I'll bite.

Peebrain wrote:

I'm basing my post on the wikipedia article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magick .

Under Crowley's definition, "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will", then a whole lot of things are magick. Like trying to quit smoking, or learning to play piano. If you want to strictly use Crowley's definition, then this thread is pretty pointless, because most change in someone's life occurs because they will it.

Yes, that would be the case IF you went by that definition... My definition, as I said was "manipulating energy to cause a change."

Quote:

Now let's look at some techniques.

..in the banishing ritual of the pentagram we not only command the demons to depart, but invoke the Archangels and their hosts to act as guardians of the Circle during our pre-occupation with the ceremony proper.

WHOA. You don't see a HUGE difference between this and whats presented on PsiPog?

But you're still using psi to do it. You're still manipulating the energy. You using tools to do it, but still doing it nonetheless. As I said, Magick is psi without the religious aspect. What you were bringing into view was a major religious aspect of magick.

Quote:

The magician becomes filled with God, fed upon God, intoxicated with God. Little by little his body will become purified by the internal lustration of God; day by day his mortal frame, shedding its earthly elements, will become in very truth the Temple of the Holy Ghost. Day by day matter is replaced by Spirit, the human by the divine; ultimately the change will be complete; God manifest in flesh will be his name.

Shocked

Where did you get that from and what does that have to do with magick? But when people invoke a God and feel that, that's the RELIGIOUS aspect again.. As I've said time and time again. Magick to that magnitude is a lot more in depth with different variations of energy. Elements can be manipulated just the same as energy can. When you invoke a god, you bring their higher energies into yourself.. Hey, don't you bring other energies into yourself when you make a psi-ball?

Quote:

Does anyone else read this and starting thinking to themselves, "yadda yadda yadda"?

I'm thinking that right now on your post and it's not BS just because YOU don't understand or agree with something.

Quote:

It's funny how people explain things. For example, in this thread, Dbizket explains, "whenever you manipulate energy for TK or whatever you're doing, you're really casting spells." But for me, I see the opposite. Whenever you do magick, you're really doing psionics plus a bunch of other useless garbage.

We'll agree to disagree there. Psi is the very core of magick. You can't do magick if you can't manipulate energy. When both are viewed by an energy manipulation, the 2 are one in the same.

Quote:

Either way, I do believe that magick does produce results. The truth is that no one knows what's going on behind the scenes, so it's all speculation. If you want to believe and use magick, go for it. I'm not here to tell you psionics is "more right", and that you're wasting your time using magick. Do what works.

Of course magick produces results. If you can change energies to move a psiwheel, you can change energies to bend elements. Again, all the same. Also, no one knows what's going on depending on how you look at it. But remember that people feel the connections to the astral dieties the same as people feel connections between each other when using telepathy and empathy. They feel it, and know what's going on and know they're right. Not being sure what's going on only raises a religious debate. As you said (for once), do what works.

Quote:

However, a lot of people, including myself, find magick to be really unappealing. Invoke godesses and dispell demons?! My honest reaction is "wtf?" I see psionics as another belief system people can use to accomplish their goals. If you have the same reaction to magick that I do when you read about it, maybe you would find psionics more appealing. I don't know.

Of course non-religious people would favor psionics over magick considering that psi is magick without the religious aspect of it. Thank you for proving my point. And you're right on the fact that magick is another belief system as it's WAY more in depth than psionics. But just dealing with psionics is only a tiny fraction of the picture. That's why I don't understand why some people only believe in psi and not magick and its principles. Wouldn't one favor the whole picture over a fraction of it?

Quote:

I was raised atheist, with a strong emphasis on science, and very skeptical of anything paranormal. When I was 15, I was forced to deal with the hard truth that psychic abilities are real. I sure as hell wasn't going to drop all the useful beliefs that come with atheism and science just because I discovered a small hole in them Wink

. I am no longer athiest, but I still find healthy skepticism to be extremely useful.

Right. You've been personally proven to that psionics are real. I've been personally proven to that magick and its principles are real. I can't prove to you that it's real and you can't prove to me that it isn't. Although that wasn't the intention of my post. My post pointed out the similarities between magick and psi and being a user of both magick AND psi, I completely stand by it.

Quote:

I'm sure you (Dbziket) were raised very differently. I believe that we are all working with what we have, and slowly changing our beliefs to align themselves with truth. Psions and wiccans are people who have discovered one basic truth: weird shit does happen, and coincidence isn't good enough. But we have drastically different beliefs on how to make weird shit happen, and what mechanism makes weird shit happen.

I agree with you there. Yes I was raised a Christian but I was born into both psionics and magick. Meaning that I discovered and knew about them all my life and it's impossible to expect one person to magically believe something completely different.

Quote:

Wiccans will talk about rituals, demons, angels, and gods.

Right, and that's all a part of Wicca but a basic spell is an energy manipulation through vizualization. It's the EXACT SAME. Wiccans believe in all of that but that's not ALL of Wicca.

Quote:

Psions mostly talk about visualization, energy, feelings, and science.

Right, so do magick users. As a matter of fact, ask anyone you find who practices magick how they accomplish anything, or what the science behind it is. It's the exact same as psi.

Quote:

I don't see that people need to choose between one or the other. If you like magick, and you like psionics... do both. PsiPog is about psionics though. If you want to talk about magick, go to a magick site.

~Sean

I see.... Uh, aren't you choosing between one and the other? Confused

Did I come here to start a discussion on magick? No. It evolved into it. My post stated the similarities between magick and psi and how spells and psi are the same thing.

Posted on Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:59 pm

Dbizket

Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 85

sgtpsion wrote:

Psi, Magick, Prayer, whatever you choose to use, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I don't care what you use. If it gets to the same place, you're there. You can take a straight road (Psi), or more scenic routes (Prayer or Magick). It's personal discretion.

Couldn't agree more. It's all the same to me but then again, for them to be the same you would need a more in-depth definition of the 3. But I could care less which method anyone takes.

Quote:

Just remeber to consider your audience when talking about it though.

Why would I bother talking about that on a magick board? They already agree with me. Where's the challenge or fun in that?

Posted on Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:12 pm

Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

As I stated, the information I got for my post was in the wikipedia article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magick , including the quotes.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. You are saying that magick and psionics use the same mechanism? Yes, probably so.

You're arguing that psionics is magick minus the religion? Hmmm... ok. I don't really study or practice magick, so I don't know, but I think it's a little more complicated than that.

My first post's intention was to paint a more clear picture of why I personally choose to practice psionics.

it's not BS just because YOU don't understand or agree with something.

Where did I say that magick is BS? I am openly stating that I don't study it. I am openly stating that I think it produces results. I am openly stating that if it makes sense to you, and you want to practice it... go for it!

I see.... Uh, aren't you choosing between one and the other?

Yes, I personally have chosen to practice psionics. My original statement means that I don't think others must choose to practice only psionics. I don't care what other people practice, and they are free to study and try out whatever they want. I don't care if some of PsiPog's members practice magick... that's great. But at the same time - PsiPog is about psionics. So if you're looking for some magick buddies, or magick discussion, PsiPog probably isn't the best place to go looking. This follows the same logic that you probably wouldn't go to a fishing website to ask about cooking cupcakes. Sure, you might find a few people there that know a thing or two about cupcakes, but the topic at the website is fishing. Go to a cupcake site if you want to talk about cupcakes.

~Sean

Posted on Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:59 am

Dbizket

Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 85

Again, I was just comparing the 2. I was relating Magick to Psionics, therefore it belongs here just fine.

Posted on Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:47 am

Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

Dbizket wrote:

Again, I was just comparing the 2. I was relating Magick to Psionics, therefore it belongs here just fine.

The bolded text is where your reasoning has a hole. That "therefore" has no place there because what belongs in this forum can't involve drugs or religion, both of which forms of magick use in their rituals and spells. Yes, Psi is used in many forms of magick, but it's just one of a magician's tools. It's like saying in a forum dedicated to talking about wrenches that because a wrench is a tool, every tool should be a subject of discussion.

So while "direct magick" would easily be discussed here because it is EXACTLY the same thing as psi, only with a different name and older roots, not all magicks can be topics of discussion.

Peebrain: Aleister Crowley is a terrible person to quote about the realities of magick. In some people's minds, his fame seems to override the fact that he was a frickin loonie but in actuality he had very little real knowledge about magick and it's fundamentals. He was just another pawn of astral entities that became obssessed with his powers. And no one that's receiving their abilities from another being has a serious knowledge of metaphysics.

Posted on Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:48 pm

Damien

Joined: 28 May 2006
Posts: 89

Alright. So, I skipped the second page, so I dunno if this has been said or not, but here goes:

Psionics, and the material presented on psipog, all have to do with manipulating energy. Magic does too. The difference?

With Psionics, you manipulate the energy with your brain. No candles, symbols, whateverthehell, it's just you and the energy. With Magic, you (from what I've read elsewhere) have to use candles and symbols and all of that other stuff. Psionics isn't Magic. Magic is Psionics.

And, oddly enough, browsing through Magic websites has lead me to Psionics, with which I've had more pleasing results.

Posted on Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:34 pm

The_Artful_Dodger

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 143

Lightbringer i would kiss u if i could - but then you'd probably kill me but anyhoo -

Lightbringer makes the most, well one of the most, relevant points about the link between these various practices - and that is in understanding the mechanics of psionics etc. - by linking and approaching various practices and ideologies we can find a way to better understand what it is we (well you) do. At the same time we can't make the mistake of linking them too closely together - i can't remember who it is that mentioned the part that rituals, entities, summonings etc. play in other practices - but these are characteristics that set them quite apart from each other and psionics. So the relevance of the ps/magic(what is with the damned k) link? that depends on how you approach it, but don't over or underestimate it. The two are both the same and yet completely different

+ Lightbringer's point on Crowley really pleased me - for gods sake the man lost the thread VERY early on - i reckon his work is important in some senses, but as usual and as sadly is the case in so many practitioners of whatever craft, they get a tad involved in themselves and not the goal - His work on the significance of the Will is pretty damned interesting though...

Posted on Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:50 pm

sgtpsion

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 425

I think I actually agree with Lightbringer for once! WOW! Putting this date on the calendar as a special one!
Crowley WAS a nut. He lost the plot pretty good. I think we can leave that at that.

And, as many have hinted and vaguely (or maybe not so vaguely) speculated at, Magick is Psi, with a bunch of stuff added. As far as I can tell, the first parapsychologists decided to study paranormal effects (caused my magick, among other things), and try to find the bare-bones mechanism of it. What better way to do that than to do similar stuff to magick, and just take all the religious/spiritual stuff out of it? It would (in theory, at least) leave you with only the raw technique, mechanism, and effect. Which would make it reproducible under a greater range of conditions.

Posted on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:52 pm

WhiteRaven

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 343

Crowley was indeed a nut, I strongly disagree with him on most points, and I can't see much intelligence in his magic nor his beliefs, but I also know that he was a key in the revival of magic, though I think he would have done better if he LAID OFF THE HEROIN, and maybe he would have had a social life if he didn't FILE ALL HIS TEETH TO A SHARP POINT. And let's not forget his STD's, I believe his strongest association to such diseases was gonorrhea. So yeah, he ranks about the same as freud on the raving lunatic moron scale.

"With Psionics, you manipulate the energy with your brain. No candles, symbols, whateverthehell, it's just you and the energy. With Magic, you (from what I've read elsewhere) have to use candles and symbols and all of that other stuff. Psionics isn't Magic. Magic is Psionics."

*sigh* I'll sum it up: direct magic-magic without use of rituals, meaning, as you put it: "No candles, symbols, whateverthehell, it's just you and the energy. With Magic, you (from what I've read elsewhere) have to use candles and symbols and all of that other stuff."

you don't have to, it's just good for breaking mental barriers, I never bothered with rituals, and I am quite pleased with the results.

"what is with the damned k"

some use it out of habit, but it's meant to seperate stage magic, from real magick. I think for most in here it's just habit.

Posted on Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:42 am

The_Artful_Dodger

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 143

Crowley's hyprocicy (spelling) is an important one though - the book of law describes the importance of the True Will which is diluted through, well life, society etc. His obsession with ritual and sex/drug magic(grudgingly drops in the k)s were dilutions of his will - sadly enough the idiot never realised that. From what ive read of Osman Spare and chaos magics they followed the tradition of the true will more closely. - But again they went a bit on the nutty side.

The great thing abut psionics is that the dilution of will is circumveted by a logical approach and the lack of any ritual - which is probably where the 2 are completely different and yet exactly the same. Originally Hermetic and Thelemic traditions were (this is my opinion) based on the True Will in its rawest form, as is or was early psionics, in time, as with all of these practices, the rise of ritual will lead to the same stagnation of thought etc. I hope you see my point - early magic(k)al traditions (well the ones that involved the True Will) are actually almost exactly like psionics, but in time became tainted by blahdeblahdeblah....

+ its arghuable that visualisation is a similar dilution of the will - but hey... im probably bullshitting

+ hermeticism - in alchemy has, if u read about it, some interesting relevance

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