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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:58 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
northstar_223
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 |
I agree that it is perfectly ok to use telepathy, empathy, or any other means of self defense physical, mental or otherwise if you or your loved ones are in danger or your life or safety is threatened.
I don't think telepathy is any more of an immoral way to manipulate others than using your words to manipulate others, or using peer preasure, or sex, or specific knowledge to manipulate someone's behavior. Its the manipulation that begs the moral question, not the means by which you are doing it. Just like, for example I think its immoral to use telepathy to cheat on a test at school.... not because you are using telepathy to do it, but because its cheating. |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:44 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peebrain
Site Admin |
I have. Just because it's labelled as "suggestion" doesn't mean that it IS a suggestion. TPS is dangerous, no doubt about that. It might come off as a suggestion at first, because of the weak sending. But as the sending power increases, it starts becoming less of a suggestion, and more of a command. You equate TPS to talking with someone else. I guess the real question is: why would you ever choose to use TPS instead of talking to someone? When does TPS serve a purpose that talking to someone can't also serve? If your friend Paul listens to your reasons of why you think he shouldn't hang out with a crowd, and decides to hang out with them anyways - what gives you the right to use TPS? He's heard your side of the argument, and he's decided to do what he wants to do. Just because YOU perceive it as a negative choice doesn't give you the right to override his decision. He's a conscious being who has the right to decide what he wants to do with his life. You've expressed yourself verbally. He's heard your side, and heard your concern. It's still his decision on what he wants to do though - it isn't your decision. ~Sean |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:03 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JoeT
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
Hello Peebrain,
Perhaps you missed my previous comment concerning that same paragraph. I suggest you re-read my previous post. Also, I'm withholding information due to the fact that I simply did not want the other members getting ideas and so fourth. If this is a free discussion, let's do it. I know TPS can come off as a command. As I sender, I thrive for that. I've been working with telepathic suggestion is late 2003, over that time I have the capability to make my receiver believe the he/she is really thinking, wanting what I send them. However, we all have morals we set for each other, I won't cross a certain line or suggest another to perform a certain task that I know he or she would not do or like.
Well, let me ask you something, why the waste your time trying to explain to someone why participating in a certain event would cause harm to them, and hope they understand, when you can simply use telepathic suggestion and have he or she believe it's what they want? It makes certain occurrences less dramatic and more easier.
That's absolutely incorrect and quite foolish. Why wouldn't you go that extra mile to keep your friend away from drugs and danger? You would have myself or another telepath stand there, shrug my shoulders and go "Oh well, I tried" and allow him to ruin his life? - That's ridiculous. Horrible example on your part. You're not understanding the beneficial aspects of telepathic suggestion. They're are countless ways that someone could use this ability for positive reasons. Like I said, it depends on the practitioner of the ability to make his own morals and ethical values. Anything can be used negatively. All psionic can be used for negative reasons, you should know that by now. Telepathic suggestion is an amazing ability to learn and like every psionic-related ability, you can either use what you know for positive or negative reasons. - JoeT |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:29 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peebrain
Site Admin |
Because I owe that person the respect of talking to them face to face about my concerns. If I don't have the courage and patience to talk to them about it, then obviously that's my shortcoming. Not my friends.
It's a perfect example. How is forcing someone to make a decision "going an extra mile" for them? People make stupid decisions all the time, including myself. That doesn't give someone else the right to make the decision for me. I have the right to make bad decisions, and my friends have the right to try and convince me otherwise - but TPS isn't "convincing". TPS is inserting your own decision in the mind of your target with the intent that they confuse your decision as their own. For example, I believe that eating fast food is unhealthy. If you choose to eat fast food, I might say something to you along the lines of, "Ya know, Wendy's isn't really that healthy for you." If you say, "I don't care, I'm eating it anyways" ... do I have the right to force you not to eat it? Do I have the right to take your wallet until you promise not to buy Wendy's? Afterall - I'm preventing you from making a bad decision. You're arguing in favor of an "end justifies the means" mentallity. You argue that "look, I can do all sorts of positive things using TPS!" That doesn't really matter... even if your result is positive doesn't mean that the means by which you achieved that good result is also good. If I want to help poor people out, is it morally right for me to rob a bank so that I can give the money to poor people? No. That's great that I want to help poor people - but I must find a moral way to do so. What makes TPS morally wrong is inside your own post, right here:
Explain to me how that is moral. You are invading their mind, and injecting your own beliefs, and your goal is to deceive your target, hoping that they will confuse your injected belief with their own belief. Deception is not moral. TPS is deception. Your goal is to deceive your target. Whether or not that deception is used for a positive or negative result doesn't matter - the act of purposely deceiving is immoral. ~Sean |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:02 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jael
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 |
The problem I see with your position, JoeT, is this:
What is considered good (or bad) by folks is not universal. People make decisions all the time. Some people think they are good, other people think they are bad. If you want to see the end result of 'making people choose good things' (as decided by society), you might watch iRobot or read Brave New World. Jael |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:29 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JoeT
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
Hello peebrain,
You'll be doing the same exact thing, with the same intentions! You would talk to them, express your opinion and hope that he or she will listen. I can do that same exact thing around the world. Please note that when I have something to say, I say it without hesitation. However, when I know someone is going to make a bad decision, whether it's doing drugs, robbing a store, fighting etc, I'll use whatever I can to help them avoid performing this mistake that could ruin his/her life.
You would be inserting the morally right decision. Doing drugs isn't a "stupid decision" and that's it, it's a life changing decision that could have ended up fatal. I have absolutely no regrets for using telepathic suggestion on Paul. He is now in college and has a steady job. If I wouldn't have gone that extra mile and performed telepathic suggestion, he'd probably be either dead or in jail. I made the right decision and you have absoultly no right to tell me I didn't make the right decision. That's ridicules.
Another poor example, I'm not going to waste my time suggesting another to stop eating Wendy?s. If someone wants to gain his cholesterol, have heart problems and become obese, let them. However, let's say I was concerned and I did perform telepathic suggestion on him. I'd be helping him in the long run social and health wise. I wouldn't want to see my friend end up dying young due to the fact that he eat too many hamburgers. When I perform telepathic suggestion, I think two things: 1) How will this effect the receiver long term wise? 2) What is my goal, how can I help him/her? I have the liberty of helping this person with a problem he or she might have. What's stopping me from helping this person? I'm pointing them on the right path, I'm trying to benefit this receiver with my suggestion. Remember, I follow my own morals. If I know that I can help another with a problem they're having, I'll help them.
Using telepathic suggestion for positive reasons can be argued by many aspects. For example, you believe that even though my intentions are good and the results are even better, it's still morally wrong to do because it's an invasion of privacy and free will. Well, my friend, my philosophy is that if someone isn't using their free will property (Doing drugs, joining a gang, fighting etc), I am obligated to help that person using telepathic suggestion or any means of communication to benefit that persons future. Why allow that person to end up dead or in jail when you can easily help him/her by suggesting that they don't do this, they don't do that, they go back to school, go to church, go back home, call your parents etc. I believe you wouldn't be a true friend if you didn't help that person by doing everything you can to help ensure that persons safety. I think it's quite foolish and pitiful to walk away saying "It's your decision" allowing that person to ruin their life.
What is this? Telepathic suggestion isn't "mind rape", it is not murder and its certainly not concerning robbing a bank. Please keep the dramatics to a minimum. Aside from that, I'm not saying be your own mental vigilante but if you know that your friend or family member is doing something that you know is wrong and it will eventually ruin his/her life, then telepathic suggestion is a great source to turn to. Excuse me if you mind me sending you beneficial thinking, that's MY fault.
If your target is unable to properly think for themselves and not have the common sense to know that he or she is ruining their life?s by doing something stupid, who says knocking some sense into them is wrong? You're sending them beneficial ideas and thinking. I believe you'd be absolutely stupid if you didn't do everything you can to help out a family member or friend when you know that they are in dire need or intelligent knowledge.
If you ended up in a driving accident and was fatally injured by a drunk driver, he smashed your vehicle as well as your physical self knocking you unconscious. You ended up in the hospital, they couldn't identify you so your will as well as other information could not be located therefore placing the doctors in a quick thinking scenario. Would it be morally wrong if the doctors decided to perform immediate operations on you to save you life without your consent? Absolutely not. Do you know why? They're looking to help you. They want you to live and therefore benefiting your future. That small example is exactly how I feel helping out close friends and family members with difficult decisions that they are unable to think clearly due to either rebellion or pure confusion. It is not deceiving if you're morally doing the right thing to protect the outcome of your target in the long run. - JoeT |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:32 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JoeT
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
Hello everyone,
I will be attending a party through the hours of 8:30 - 10:30pm. I will respond to any comments or post regarding the topic at hand. Please feel free to post your thoughts, opinions or ideas while I'm gone, just please know that I'll attend to your comments when I return. - JoeT |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:59 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peebrain
Site Admin |
Why are you concerned with how good my examples are? That's twice you've said my example is poor - yet obviously, you don't understand the point I'm trying to make. Instead of immediately dismissing my example, why not read it over again and try to understand the point?
You read my Wendy's example completely backwards. It has nothing to do with TPS - it has to do with an "end justifies the means" mentallity. Is it morally right for me to take his wallet to prevent him from buying Wendy's? No, it's not. I made the right decision and you have absoultly no right to tell me I didn't make the right decision. This entire topic is about ethics of TPS. I do have the right to tell you you made a bad decision. That's the purpose of this topic. Ethics. If you didn't want me to analyze your example, then you shouldn't have used that example in this thread. What is this? Telepathic suggestion isn't "mind rape", it is not murder and its certainly not concerning robbing a bank. Please keep the dramatics to a minimum. Yet in your post, you are comparing TPS to being a doctor saving somebody who was in a car wreck and has lost the ability to consciously give the doctor permission to operate. You are surely being more dramatic than I am. If your target is unable to properly think for themselves and not have the common sense to know that he or she is ruining their life?s by doing something stupid, who says knocking some sense into them is wrong? Who are you to say they are "unable to properly think"? Is it so unconceivable that they are thinking just fine, and consciously choosing to do what they want to do? So let me get this straight. You judge people, and determine if they are capable of "thinking properly" (according to your own standards). If they can't "think properly", then you feel it's your responsibility to think for them. And you somehow think that this is moral? You really need to listen to what you're saying. You have completely sidestepped addressing the conclusion of my previous post. The conclusion was this: TPS is a form of deception. Deception is immoral. Any example you give that has a positive result doesn't matter because you are arguing in favor of an "end justifies the means" mentallity. The end does not justify the means. Deception is immoral. You have no right to judge whether someone is "thinking properly" or not. ~Sean |
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| Posted on Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:53 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PazarX
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 |
I've read over this post a few times and i personally have to side with JoeT on this one. If your friend has proven that they cannot think for themselves by making a terrible decision wouldn't you help them out by any means possible and by knowing TPS you just have another tool to help out. I'm sure that JoeT will never regret helping his friend out when he had a problem and i'm sure by using TPS he has helped his friend learn a lesson that he would have learned eventually but, JoeT helped him learn this lesson faster so he wouldn't hurt himself or get deeper in the situation. By what your arguing i could say that rehab is immoral when you force someone to go to stop an addiction, or that when you have a rebel that simply won't listen that it's immoral to send him to a boot camp to learn to be a better member of society. Some people simply need that extra push and everytime i've ever given it to someone they have always thanked me in the end. as humans in this world we need to look out for eachother and help at anytime possible. That's just how i feel.
~PazarX |
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| Posted on Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:25 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Elliptic
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 |
I don't believe in moral relativism - there is a such thing as a moral absolute; there are certain things which are immoral regardless of my opinion of the matter. Rape is never acceptable. Killing young children for sport on national television is not acceptable. Even if there was some culture that felt it was good to pick the fingernails off of children as punishments, and that culture saw that as morally right, it would not be so.
They are different, but morally equivalent. Murder is wrong because murder alters an individual's sentience. That very things which makes people human - their rationality, is directly impacted by both actions.
This is not simple Sending. Suggestion implies an intent to force or manipulate an individual to do what you are recommending. If you talk to someone, and say "hey, kill yourself," then they have the ability to rationally consider the suggestion and decide whether or not they will act on it. With telepathic suggestion, you are deliberately affecting that decision making process so that they will arrive at the conclusion you desire. In doing so, you are directly compromising their rationality.
Again, how do you believe this ability can be justly used? What situations allow this to be used that are morally "right?" Since when is entertainment value, amusement, or ease a viable justification for forcing people to conform to your will?
Did you have consent in these situations? With the chap sneaking from the house, does he know that it wasn't him who decided to not sneak out? Does he know that he doesn't have the right to those decisions, and that you have made them for him? Is he aware that you don't believe he's capable of keeping himself in line, and that he would get into trouble and in harm's way? With Paul, I won't get into the relative ambiguity of drug use - I don't think we should imprison people for it, so I certainly don't think we should brainwash them not to do it. Paternalism is not a good thing. Others have no right to dictate how we live our lives - telepathic suggestion, in both these cases, is the most extreme form of it!
Beneficial aspects in your opinion - not in theirs. That's why it's a problem: you are doing things to people without their consent, and forcing them to think the way you want them to. This makes them less "themselves" and more "you." You have taken away their rationality and replaced it with your own.
You have no right to decide what is good or bad for someone else - you have no right to decide what others should or should not do. You certainly have no right to force them to conform to your will. If I decide I want to smoke crack, you have no right to decide for me that I don't want to. I did not give you power-of-attorney over my entire existance. I don't feel comfortable associating with people who think they have a right to dictate how I should behave - let alone what I should think or how I should act!
Telepathic suggestion is more than simply telling someone to do it because the victim is unsuspecting and often incapable of distinguishing the thought from their own - that's why it works. Suggestion is not just Sending some helpful advice. It is intended to manipulate. You didn't just Send to Paul "don't smoke." By your own admission, your manipulated suggestion was something they obeyed not because they heard the thought and decided "Hmm, he sure is right," but because they had no way of knowing it wasn't them doing the original thinking.
But again, telepathic suggestion is not simply telling someone "hey, I think you should do this." The point is to cause them to think and perform the action - not to show them an option. You can Send friendly advice, and that's one thing. Suggesting an act in the telepathic sense of the word implies control and manipulation.
You don't believe that ethics are universal, how can you tell whether or not someone has "positive ethical stances?" You've talked about in this post forcing people to do things that you felt were good for them - but what you think is good is very different from what I think is good. I think people have the right to smoke marijuana, and know quite a few people who do so quite often without any negative repercussions, and have done so for a very long time. So you have decided on someone else's behalf how they should behave - that's immoral. Peer pressure and force of will are different animals. Telepathic suggestion is used to get people to do what you want them to do - it's not a friendly hint.
What you're saying makes little sense - telepathic suggestion isn't giving a tip. It's attempting to get the mark to do what you want them to do. The mechanisms involved are commonly effective because the victim believes the thoughts are their own. They don't get the benefit of realizing someone else is Sending the thought into their head - they think they are thinking it. This can be distressing if the Suggestion is contrary to how they would normally think. Further, other, more overt, forms of communication can be identified as coming from an outside source - telepathic suggestions arrive in the victim's head without a traceable medium. This makes it much harder to recognize it as something that can be ignored.
Yes, you've made people do things they wouldn't normally do. You've compromised their free will and altered their lives. In that example, it was in an insignificant way. In the example with Paul, it was in a major way. You are deciding for people what you want them to think and do, and thereby revoking their right to do so on their own.
I think you missed the "lmao." In case you didn't catch it - that comes from one of the very few memories of the years before 2005 that I have. He decided that he didn't like my capitalizing LMAO when I typed it in chat, preferring the "lmao" that he was fond of. He told me he was going to do it, and I actively resisted. I did not want to change that typing pattern. The suggestion eventually took, though, and against my will I performed that act. I don't know what "propaganda" you're talking about, and I don't appreciate your insulting myself and my friends by claiming there is some anti-Adam conspiracy. I did things I would not normally do during that period of time, and I happen to have seen records and logs demonstrating the fact. That's something we can discuss in private, as I don't want this to become some kind of Anti-Adam shitflinging competition. I should also note that Adam is not the reason I have such strong opinions. Adam was relatively benign compared to the kind of stuff that makes me have these opinions.
The membership has the right to see both parts of the argument. We're not corrupting their minds with anti-TPS propaganda - I'm providing a different point of view, but it is one people are entitled to see and hopefully to accept. |
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| Posted on Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:46 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Elliptic
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 |
Having read between Sean and Joe now, I am glad Sean sees things similarly to me. I'd like to extrapolate on a few points.
Joe, you said before that TPS is harmless because it is merely a suggestion - a little whisper in the ear telling someone what you think they should do. You then went on to say that you relish in the control you have over a person. You believe that you have the right to make decisions for other people. I believe you're wrong. I am now going to decide on your behalf that you are incorrect. I won't actually send it, I just want you to know that I think you're wrong, and that your opinion is dangerous. By your standards, I am allowed to change your opinion for you because it is dangerous for you to have it. Anyone who agrees with Joe's stance, consider this: it is impossible to tell whether or not you actually decided it for yourself. You may just agree with him because he thinks you should. After all, he believes his stance is the morally superior one, just like he believes his stance on drug use is morally superior. As a result, in his own mind, he has the right to change your opinion for your so that it can be right, like his. I don't believe he'd actually do this. I think he has higher moral standards than to change people's opinions to match his arguments. But by his own admission, he has changed people's behaviors forcibly, without their consent and without giving them the right to choose for themselves, to align with his own. Do you see how this is dangerous? This is one of those reasons you should shield - some people apparently believe they have the right to change your opinions for you if they think you're not correct. Remember, Joe has argued a morally relativist stance, but his actions indicate that he does not actually honor the ethical principles of others. Their decisions are only theirs to make so long as they make the choice that agrees with him. If you make a decision that is different from what Joe decides, then you do not have the right to make that decision. I disagree with Joe strongly. Very strongly. I drink a lot. Some people have wondered whether or not I'm an alcoholic. Joe, do you think you have the right to change my mind for me, and make me drink less? I haven't been drinking as much the last week, was that you? I don't know. I can't tell. It sounds to me, from your posts, that you think you have the right to make me drink less by changing my mind for me. It sounds to me like you do not believe I have the right to make decisions for myself if those decisions aren't in agreement with yours. I am now in a very difficult position, because I am unsure whether or not it's safe to talk to you. After all, you might try to change my mind about all sorts of things. It's also not safe to not talk to you, because you might Suggest to me that I should talk to you. I am in a difficult position, Joe. I can't take your word, because I can't be sure whether or not you're just Suggesting that I should take your word. Do you see the issue? I hope so. We're going to have to continue this conversation publically - doing so in private might give you an opportunity to change my mind and force a compromise. Another reason to redouble my shields. |
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| Posted on Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:51 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Evan
Joined: 30 May 2006 |
*waves to his PsiPog buddies* Hi Guys. It's been awhile.
Anyway, a side note before I begin: I'm aware that this is being posted on a public forum. There's no need to point that out. Also, I have my reasons. So, to begin, JoeT, I'm going to attempt to stay as much 'as myself' as I can without seeming blatantly rude, but be aware that some of what you're about to read may possibly offend you. But I think it'd be good for you to hear it.
Let me also say that what I'm about to share with you has nothing to do with any sort of 'brainwashing' that Elliptic, Rainsong, or anyone has done. I'm speaking completely from personal experience. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I'm also aware of what Adam has done in the past. And it's not something that many people would condone. I think that even you, Joe, even though your views differ greatly from mine on the subject of moral issues, would find something inherently wrong with at least a few things I'm about to describe to you. Even now, I'm having to fight against conditioning done to me over the course of around the entire time Myriad and I were in contact with each other just to post this and get it out into the open. Adam was a man obsessed with control. There's no doubt about it in my mind from what he's told me himself and from what he's taught me. He's used people, he's manipulated them, and I don't think he's ever felt guilty because of his actions due to a more extreme version of the exact same mindset that you exhibit right now. He would regularly perform tests on me involving constructs he had made. Such constructs include ones that unrelentingly performed telepathic 'suggestion' on the target, monitored the target's every move, and even ones that reprogrammed the target's actions, personality, and how they would react to certain stimuli. I know this, and that he was doing it to me, because he told me he was. I also couldn't resist. I was "spellbound". I was 12-14 years old at the time, and didn't have much in the way of formal 'get this crazy psychic ass off my back' defense training. He 'suggested' and strongly conditioned me to never tell anyone under any circumstances, and like I said, I'm fighting that at this very moment. Elliptic is correct regarding the "lmao". He may joke about it, but if Adam didn't like something about someone, he would change it without thinking twice about it. The constructs programmed to perform telepathic suggestion which I mentioned earlier that he tested and used on me are what he would use to change people. It's not far off to say that if it weren't for him, I might be a completely different person right now. I can't say whether I would be better or worse, but I would -certainly- have less mental scars. He completely ruined me on several occasions. There were times when I would absolutely beg for him to take whatever construct he'd set at the time out of my head. Many times he would ignore me, or change the programming to something else and tell me he'd removed it. I'd usually come to find out a few weeks later, always due to him telling me, that the way I'd felt and acted for that time period was also his doing, and that I still hadn't been myself. He would even punish me with the damn things if I ever did anything he actively disliked. "Telepathic suggestion?", you might say, "So what if he changed things he didn't like about people?" There's more, so don't worry. I have an awful memory of the time, so forgive me, but some of you may remember Psi Soldier. A combat oriented psionics community that Adam had set up for a short time. He would give us random targets to attack that -he- would choose. What most of you may not know is that Psi Soldier was a front organization/recruitment organization for Adam's -real- psychic combat unit, Cloak and Dagger. Some of you may be thinking right now, "Omigosh! He's not supposed to be talking about that! It was a secret organization!", and that's really exactly my point demonstrated to the fullest. You think those things, even though it was disbanded years ago, because you were programmed to think that way. I won't go into member names, but I'll admit to having been one. I also won't discuss what went on there aside from a few things I heavily regret. All because of his powers of telepathic 'suggestion'. During the time of this, he, of course, went Mormon, as I'm sure you're aware. It was during this time that I had a break from his constant barrage of 'suggestion' and took the opportunity to go away and leave the entire psionics community. I've been gone for around three years because I've been afraid of him, and actually just recently came back a few months ago. So, in conclusion, I don't want to hear that there isn't any evidence of Adam using telepathic suggestion on his friends from anyone when you have living evidence right in front of you. I also could go without hearing about you influencing people's personal decisions. The human mind is a beautiful thing, and taking away sentient thought, which sets us apart from most of the other things in this world, is, effectively, a terrible crime. That, Joe, using a term you seem to be fond of, is ridiculous. -Evan |
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| Posted on Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:27 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ShadowMind
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 |
Hello everyone,
Your opinions are all dually noted and understood. I'm not going to continue this argument with everyone if you're not able to understand the beneficial aspects of my statements. This topic in my opinion was a horrible idea. I shouldn't have bothered nor taken the advice of another to start this topic. I believe this was a cold hard setup and I believe that's really sad. So, congratulations. No telepathic suggestion will be taught here nor discussed. Let's get cracking on those psiballs, kids! 
I'd like to first clear up certain gossip that was stated on this thread. Once again, I've been asked by my friend to clear this matter up for him to stop these outrageous propaganda issues.
Evan, my dear friend lets not forget who you're talking to. I recall a certain young fellow first joining the chat interested in many aspects of psionics which myself and others gladly helped you with. I believe you should take a step back and note who you're talking to.
I'm afraid your ignorant in my time spent here as well as other psionic communities. So, I'll give you some helpful information. I worked with Adam as well as other staff members of Soldier. I myself was a staff member there. I've known Adam for a very long time, I've been there every time "something" went wrong and the finger was pointed towards Adam. Please don't I'll allow you or anyone to conduct preaching me of claims of Adam or anyone one of my friends.
The community that he started was based on "advance" material related to psionics, I know that. We did practice mental manipulation as well as other forms of manipulation. However, please don't neglect Adam's morals. We all have certain guidelines/morals that we personally follow, Adam was no different. You obviously didn't know Adam that well. If you did, you would have realized the simply truth. He just wanted to be alone follow his own agenda. What bothered him was when people repeatedly challenged him as well as his community based on his morals and personal views. Yet, he was repeatedly spoken negatively about throughout major communities based on what he practiced and they way he viewed ethical aspects of psionics. Please do not stand there and tell me I'm behaving like Adam. If that were true, I'd admit that. You certainly enjoy stereotyping old members when he or she goes against something that you disagree with. Also, my friend, you shouldn't preach what you don't know. I don't recall seeing you located on the forums or chat. Where is this "personal experience" coming from?
You certainly make this sad tale out to be truthful but you're lacking a certain aspect of evidence. I'll be more than willing to look back at my logs (kept logs since 1997) and search for these painful events. However, I do recall you talking to Adam in the PsiPog chat room for a decent amount of time every now and then. If these allegations are true, I'm sure if you would have asked Adam to stop, he would have. He's not the monsters that yourself and others make him out to be.
Oh, and such the heroic effort you're performing! You placed yourself in the position that you said you were in or you're either lying. Either way, these allegations and dramatic statements are not doing nothing but spreading false statements and rumors. Like I said, if you would have asked Adam to stop (assuming that you're telling the truth), I believe he would have. Also, I'm a natural telepath. I've been the sender and the receiver for the majority of my life whether wanted or not. What leads me to believe that you're lying is due to the following: 1) Lack of evidence. 2) I don't recall you being a member of Soldier. 3) I know from experience that you never tell your target what you're suggesting him/her to perform/follow. You've stated that Adam "forced" you to never tell anyone about your genie pig routine. I would never inform my target on what I'm suggesting nor would I alert them if I choose to "spellbound" them (which I find morally wrong, I'll never do that to another).
If that is true, I truthfully apologize for his actions. Anyone performing similar mental attacks/restraints should indeed be handled maturely. However, why didn't you alert another? RainTurtle was a major aspect of Adam's life. If you would have alerted her (assuming that you didn't), I'm sure she would have handled the situation and removed the construct herself. I'm sure others would have done the same. I do remember when members started to complain to other staff members about Adam while his status in PsiPog was still there. I don't really recall the names of those members, but I did get Adam's statements which he shared with me concerning the matter. Like I said, I'm truthfully sadden by hearing your statements. I was fortunate enough not to take part in his experiments where I was the genie pig. As a personal student of Adam, I'm sorry to hear that you were scared. However, until I can either find logs showing evidence of these situations really occurring, I'll remain skeptical. However, the remorse is still there. I hope that's understandable.
I participated in those small practice groups which I either was conducting them or just helping out. My past haunts me and I regret a lot of the decisions I made. However, it's important not to dwell on the past. Although scares remain, you should always look forward to the future.
*Slowly shakes head*, those were bad times. I was indeed apart of that small group myself. You might recognize this name as one of the members conducting some of the experiments. Like I said, my past haunts me. I was young, foolish and I looked up to Adam (as many did). I've learned over the years to follow my own moral agreements and follow my own path without following another. If you don't mind, I don't want to discuss this matter further.
Well, I was one of the first to greet you back. I'm glad you've returned.
I hate to say it, but you're not at liberty to make that statement. You cannot tell me (or anyone) that Adam never used telepathic suggestion for beneficial reasons. Although Adam did in fact use this ability for personal gain (like many of us did back then), Adam doesn't define myself or other practitioners of this ability. One's mistakes are not another?s. Everyone has moral rules that they follow and respect, this ability can be just as harmful as another other psionics ability.
I was sadden and angered when I read that paragraph. For as long as you've known me, you'd make that type of stereotypical remark. I can't even put into words how that statement effected me. |
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| Posted on Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:14 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mad_Hatter
Joined: 19 Feb 2006 |
Seeing what people have said...I think I will reverse my opinion. A skilled practitioner of telepathic projection could not be trusted to change you in ways that you would approve. Chances are, if you're making a choice in the first place, you probably don't want it changed. While drugs and other self destructive mechanisms may be a noteworthy exception in some people's (mine own included) opinions, I don't think it justifies using this ability. It is simply too much control over someone else. The thought of losing will and volition is too scary for me to consider. Also, this topic has gotten rather heavy with personal vendettas and past experiences. I hope it stays away from personal attacks, although things seem to be tending towards that direction already. |
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| Posted on Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:25 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Evan
Joined: 30 May 2006 |
Ah, ShadowMind.
Are you sure you have the right person? I'd been hanging around since before Adam had ever been involved in anything. I'd say I first joined PsiPog around 7 years ago? It was definitely when Sean had first started up. Before that, I hung around with Elliptic and Rainsong on Dimensional Doorways.
I won't doubt your claims that I'm ignorant of your time spent here, as you seemed to have just popped up during my time gone. Hehe. I, however, don't need your 'helpful' information. I am wondering what your last sentence means, though? You might want to go back and rephrase it, as I don't quite understand.
Like Elliptic had mentioned earlier, there is a certain moral absolute. I believe Adam went beyond this. He is human, just like everyone else, and had no right to infringe upon the natural rights of other people.
I knew Adam very well, thanks. I don't believe you should follow him without questioning his actions. For example, have you ever questioned -WHY- people repeatedly challenged his moral views as related to his psionic practices? Because there was something inherently wrong.
I'm sorry for that comment. I was simply stating that your mindset regarding suggestion seemed similar. And what old members have I stereotyped? You're clearly jumping to conclusions too fast. And yes, I was a member of the chat and forums. It's a possibility that I went by a different name, as I personally can't remember, and I apologize for that. Most of my contact with him, however, was via IM.
There's a reason for that: It IS truthful. And I doubt you'd have logs from my AIM conversations with him, but if for some reason you do, go ahead. And of course none of this occurred in the PsiPog chatroom. I was told to keep quiet about it, so why would discussing it in a public chat channel make sense?
If you've had experience with being his 'guinea pig', as you put it, I apologize, but until you've had experience with subconscious cues, having telepathic suggestion performed on yourself by a skilled individual, and having your state of mind affected via all of this.. I don't want to hear you talking about it. And yes, of course I asked him to stop. He didn't. There's not much more I can say.
You being a natural telepath has nothing to do with what you go on to say. 1) I'll admit I have no logs from the time that all of this happened, as I've switched computers. I also don't think regular AIM logged back then. 2) I was. I can't recall what name I used, but my screenname, UserE5722, has remained the same throughout. Maybe you'll remember me by that? 3) And of course he never told me what he'd suggested me to perform/follow until it had worked. He would only tell me that he was doing -something- because I would ask about what was going on. It's not too difficult for a 'path to notice something like that. But of course, I don't believe anyone would be able to isolate exactly what it was he was causing them to do. I apologize if I didn't make that clear enough. On the subject of 'he conditioned and suggested me not to tell anyone', Adam would repeatedly say, "Hey, don't tell anyone about this," and reinforce it with telepathic suggestion. An example would be your experiences with your friend Paul. You had a talk with him in ADDITION to using telepathic suggestion. Suggestion is usually used to reinforce what you want a target to think after you've informed them of your ideas. He didn't, at the time, say, "Hey, I'm forcing you to not tell anyone about this."
Fair enough. And like I've repeated several times, I had been conditioned not to tell anyone. Adam would also use mental 'cues' to implant subconscious suggestions into people, as I'm sure he did with me via the word "ok" typed in quotation marks. I'm actually fairly certain that if you looked back into the logs, you would find him saying that to me at least once in the chat. But he might've used a song, a word, or a picture.
I actually supported Adam as PsiPog staff. I'm not going to go too far into detail on whether or not it was actually 'me' supporting him, though. Thanks for having sympathy, too, I guess. As I mentioned earlier, though, you MAY be able to find some instances of him using the word "ok" with me.
Who's to say I'm not? I've personally gotten over the messed up past involving these communities, which is why I'm back now.
Now you're agreeing that what he did was wrong, and that it was foolish to have looked up to him, when above this, you had been talking about how no one had any right to challenge his moral stance? Like I'm trying to point out, he was a part of some bad stuff. Semi-publically, in the case of CaD, and not so publically, in the case of what he did to me.
Thanks.
I have all the right in the world to make that statement when what he was practicing was performed on -me-. And of course he used it for beneficial reasons. But 'beneficial' is very relative. Personal gain? That's an understatement. He manipulated and used people to his fullest extent. And of course he doesn't define other practitioners by their ability with telepathic suggestion. That would be like the pot calling the kettle black. Anyway, even if some of my comments come off as a bit blunt and/or rude, I sincerely hope that you don't take them the wrong way and that we can continue this discussion. |
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